RESPONSE 1 TO IYALAJE FAMA

from toyin adepoju toyin.adepoju@googlemail.com to date 2 August 2010 14:06 subject Re: [AfroCentrikWorld] ESOTERIC KNOWLEDGE AND POWER IN THE ORISA TRADITION, T... mailed-by googlemail.com Images from this sender are always displayed. Don't display from now on.

hide details 02/08/2010

Chief Fama,

I am just seeing this.

I hope you will respond  to what I am writing now.

I am ready to appreciate misrepresentation of the Orisa tradition  by myself if it can be proven.

1.You state there are errors in my summation of classical Yoruba/Orisa epistemology and cosmology. Please state what those errors are.

I have taken pains to make an exposition of key terms in this tradition. These  terms are "Awo", "Ase", "Orí Inú and Ojú Inú", "Ille, Odu, Aje and Awon Iya Wa Osoronga".

I want to know how what you know is different from what I have presented and why you think your perspective is accurate while mine is not, in those  instances where you think I have presented errors

We need to avoid  the old  cover of esoteric knowledge people use to avoid discussing these concepts

2.You describe my posts as copied.

I insist that you state the sources my work is   copied from. I insist that you make a distinction between scholarly interpretation and copying. If you cannot make that distinction and  prove that I copied what I wrote here I demand an apology from you. afis on the Nigerian online groups has made a similar  claim but I have not taken him seriously because I get the impression he is not serious beceause he also claims to admire my work. As from now on, anyone who states that my work is copied has  to prove it or apologise to me. If they dont apologise that will be taken as proof that they can not prove their claim.

3.On what grounds do you claim that this essay on the Orisa tradition is damaging to the tradition? The only rationale you provide is that I have used scholarship by people of Euro-American  descent( I dont use the racial category "white" because nobody has "white" skin).Does not being Black mean that one cannot have authoritative knowledge on Black spiritualities? I disagree totally with that perspective.

There is nothing in any  knowledge system or practice that cannot  be learnt adequately by anyone from any race. All human practices represent variations on practices cultivated by various human groups across space and time.Ifa cosmology and epistemology, for example, can be fruitfully shown to correlate with, though it is not identical with, other practices in Asia and the West. In fact aspects of the global variations of the Orisa tradition are better understood through such intercultural comparisons. One area of that benefits from such inter-cultural comparison  is the understanding of the feminine principle, in which the information from Nigeria suggests that its current level of development does not demonstrate the full blooded elaboration developed in Hinduism and Buddhism. The development of the feminine principle might be more pronounced in the African Diaspora but I wonder if it has an intellectual, philosophical tradition at the same level as the role of the feminine  principle  demonstrated in the relationship between Hinduism, Buddhism and Indian and related philosophies.

No spirituality in the history of the world has ever achieved a  presence outside its country of origin without the wholehearted contributions of  people from outside that country. In the process of such geographical spread through which that  religion underwent adaptation Buddhism is much richer for  going beyond India into China, Japan and Tibet and there undergoing variations that demonstrate the latent potential realized by the Buddha in his enlightenment at the foot of the tree in Bodh Gaya,India.That potential is even now being further developed in the distinctive characteristics being realized in the practice of Buddhism in the West.

The huge influence of Christianity on the world could not have been achieved if it had remained locked in Palestine and within the basic parameters represented by the example, of Jesus Christ, seminal as that remains. Examples can be given from Hinduism but I think the examples I have given are enough.

It can also be argued that no system of knowledge ever actualised its potential by localising itself within a particular paradigm and geography. What is evident as mathematics   today is the ultimate result of mathematical  developments from ancient civilisations, refined and further developed in the Arab world  and given prominence and further development in Europe. The same for  science as a development of ideas that can ultimately be traced to Egypt.

To insist that only Black people are qualified to speak authoritatively on Africana religions and systems of thought is not only ahistorical-since some of the best contributors to this field are Euro-American  but represents backwardness for anyone who nurtures that view.The world will not wait  for such a  person but leave the person behind.

As it is, in my view, any comprehensive study of the Orisa tradition that excludes the monumental achievement of Susanne Wenger,whose work derives from 50 years living in Yorubaland,is incomplete. Yet Wenger is Austrian and her ideas a composite of Orisa cosmology,Buddhism, Taoism, Jungian psychology and her personal experience.

In my reading so far,I find Wenger,David Wilson also known as Awo Falokun Fatumbi and Wole Soyinka the most insightful in terms  of  the need to reinterpret the Orisa tradition in terms of an individual and modern consciousness. I am beginning to discover something similar  with Judith Gleason.

Of these writers I have mentioned only Soyinka is black. He is also Yoruba.Soyinka's works based as they are on Orisa   cosmology, could not be so powerful without his  immersion in  a global traditions  of thought and expression the vitality of which is very visible  in all his work.

You dont seem to have taken note that good number of the sources I quoted are Yoruba,including  Babatunde Lawal  and Rowland Abidoun.One can on and name other classical Yoruba writers in the field.Yet they and all others on this filed are writing about tradition that was created  by people who did not have a dynamic and widespread  writing system so they have had to learn these people’s language and  writing technology to explain their own traditions. You who write this rejoinder to my essay are doing so in English.Without the presence of western civilisation,how would the Yoruba orthography you use in your brief strechj of Yoruba in that post have been constructed? 

                                          

4.You state that I am  writing from a Euro-American(my translation of the term "white" which you characterise as "funfun". What gives you that impression? If I want to present the perspective of a Euro--American on the Orisa tradition such as David Wilson,Falokun Fatumnbi,whose work I consider sublime, then it would be legitimate effort as every one has a right to  an opinion that is available for study as the Orisa tradition is to everyone.

This perspective here is my point of view developed through practice and study. No one can build a city alone. Not to talk of a universe.Bimsbergen might be correct that Ifa is a development from Arabic sources elaborated upon  by Yoruba people. The key here is the idea of building on what inspires one.The Orisa tradition  represents  a universe of possibilities that no race  on its own or people limited to a  geographical focus can develop  to its full possibilities.

5.Your condemnation reminds me of a regrettably inconclusive debate I had on an online group in which some people condemned evetything but the perspectives on the Orisa tradition developed by pure babalawo,untouched by Western education if I understood well their perspectives. Yet they could not make any comparison of such insights in contrast to   those they are condemning because they had not encountered this mythic pure knowledge. Your claims remind me of that.

I want to know what wonderful knowledge you have that leads you to condemn my summation  of  classical Yoruba/Orisa epistemology and metaphysics. I have taken pains to make a summary of key terms in this tradition.These terms are "Awo", "Ase", "Orí Inú and Ojú Inú", "Ille, Odu, Aje and Awon Iya Wa Osoronga"

I urgently await your revelations about the inadequacy of my summations. I will not accept the old idea of the cover of esoteric knowledge people use to avoid discussing these concepts

                            

Thanks

Eagerly waiting

Toyin Adepoju

IYALAJE FAMA CRITIQUE 1

Re: [AfroCentrikWorld] ESOTERIC KNOWLEDGE AND POWER IN THE ORISA TRADITION, T...

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from FSOrunmila@aol.com to toyin.adepoju@googlemail.com, AfroCentrikWorld@yahoogroups.com date 25 July 2010 05:27 subject Re: [AfroCentrikWorld] ESOTERIC KNOWLEDGE AND POWER IN THE ORISA TRADITION, T... mailed-by aol.com Images from this sender are always displayed. Don't display from now on.

hide details 25/07/2010

Please, Toyin Adepoju, do not damage Orisa tradition any more than it has been damaged. What you posted below has some flaws. Moreoever, the article was written from a white's perspective. Eniyan dudu should stop going to the oyinbos for the history of their Dudu heritage. That is exactly what you are doing by your copied posts. It is shameful. Kindly, stop it. If you cannot do the research yourself, as a Dudu from the Dudu Continent, then, stop promoting what has been written by funfun and with funfun's yeast generously added to it. Please, please, and please, stop the insult. Insult? Yes, insult. You should be teaching your own Dudu heritage, and teach it correctly, too, as opposed to learning about your own heritage through a half-baked truth from a funfun person.

Odumare ko ni je ki iran Oduduwa pare o, ase. Ko si ni je ki a lo si ile iwe oyinbo lati ko nipa orirun Oduduwa--o di eewo.

Oro mi ko ju bayii lo.

Iyalaje.

 

In a message dated 7/24/2010 8:56:23 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,toyin.adepoju@googlemail.com writes:

Please forgive any multiple postings.The system returned some earlier posts as undeliverable.

                                                  ESOTERIC KNOWLEDGE AND POWER IN THE ORISA TRADITION

                                                  THE CONCEPT OF AJE AND ITS RELATIONSHIP TO WITCHCRAFT

                                                                                Toyin Adepoju

                                            "Osa Meji tula. Obu yankan yankan. Ariwo ajija ni d'Orun.

          Osa Meji is a rich, powerful cosmic scream. Ringing bells arrive from the vaults of Heaven[the depths of the  zone of origins]."

                        "Odu Iyaami Osoronga: Part VII" presentation and introduction by  Awo Falokun Fatunmbi.Scribd.

One of the most fascinating aspects of the Orisa tradition that has its origins in Yorubaland of Nigeria and has spread globally is its esoteric dimension and the relationship of that esoteric form to the enigmatic concept of 'aje.This term is at times translated as 'witch'.Molara Ogundipe,however,would argue that that translation distorts the meaning of the Yoruba word.That argument is accurate up to a point.It is accurate largely  in relation to the pre-twentieth century understanding of witchcraft in Western culture.The word has undergone significant change in the  West since the development of witchcraft as a religion in England  in the early to mid-twentieth century by  a number of English enthusiasts,most famous of whom is Gerald Gardner .This change brings it closer to the meaning of the word 'aje' in Yoruba,although there are significant differences. I would like to address these similarities and differences in another essay.

What follows is my effort to organise my understanding of the concepts of the esoteric and 'aje' in the Orisa tradition.

Awo 

A central,perhaps the central term for esoteric knowledge in Yoruba is 'awo'. A striking definition of 'awo'  I remember between the two definitions I have come across is by David Wilson,better known by his Ifa initiatic name,Awo Falokun Fatunmbi:

"Within the discipline of Ifa [ the central  integrative discipline of the Orisa tradition] there is a body of wisdom called “awo”, which attempts to preserve the rituals that create direct communication with forces in nature. Awo is a Yoruba word that is usually translated to mean “secret”. Unfortunately, there is no real English equivalent to the word awo, because the word carries strong cultural and esoteric associations.In traditional Yoruba culture, awo refers to the hidden principles that explain the mystery of creation and evolution. Awo is the esoteric understanding of the invisible forces that sustain dynamics and form within nature. The essence of these forces are not considered secret because they are devious, they are secret because they remain elusive, awesome in their power to transform and not readily apparent. As such they can only be grasped through direct interaction and participation. Anything which can be known by the intellect alone ceases to be awo".

This quote is from "Obatala:Ifa and the Chief of the Spirit of the White Cloth" which can be found at the free document archive Scribd and is attached to this mail..A reading of anything written by this man is likely to be rewarding to anyone interested in Ifa and Yoruba thought in particular  and esoteric and other forms of knowledge in general.His books can be purchased through his website and free essays of his can be found at Scribd and his website.

Ase

For an adequate understanding of 'awo' one would need to understand the term 'ase' because it seems the depth of one's relationship with 'ase' is central to a relationship with 'awo'.I would define ase as a cosmic force that enables being and becoming.It is described as a morally neutral transformative capacity in nature,emanating from the creator of the universe, to which human beings and spirits have access.Yoruba:Nine Centuries of African Art and Thought by Pemberton et al and the essays of Rowland Abiodun, such as "Ase: Verbalising and Visualising  Creative Power through Art" (attached) present this idea with some vividness.John Mbiti in African Religions and Philosophy describes a similar concept as central to classical African thought in general while Achebe  "The Igbo World and its Art" identifies a similar idea in the Igbo concept of 'ike',which he defines as 'energy' and 'power'.

Orí Inú and Ojú Inú

The process of gaining access to ase as well as to awo represents a cultivation of 'ori inu',the inner head,here both metaphorical for and an embodiment of 'ori' the  invisible and immortal centre of the self  that is the embodiment of the individual's potential.The cultivation of the capacities of ori inu involve  the development of 'ojú inú', the inner eye, which according to Lawal,represents a spectrum of cognitive possibilities,from critical thinking,to imagination and clairvoyance:

"As with other aspects of Yoruba culture, the eyeball is thought to have two aspects, an outer layer called oju ode (literally, external eye) or oju lasan (literally, naked eye), which has to do with normal, quotidian vision, and an inner one called oju inu (literally, internal eye) or oju okan (literally, mind's eye). The latter is associated with memory, intention, intuition, insight, thinking, imagination, critical analysis, visual cognition, dreams, trances, prophecy, hypnotism, empathy, telepathy, divination, healing, benevolence, malevolence, extrasensory perception, and witchcraft, among others" ( "Aworan:The Self and its Metaphysical other in Yoruba Art". Attached).

To see a range of perspectives on the ori concept among Ifa babalawo-masters of the esoteric knowledge of Ifa-, one could see Adegboyega Orangun, Destiny:The Unmanifested Being.Also very useful are other philosophical discussions of ori.

The Feminine Matrix in Orisa Cosmology: Ille, Odu, Aje and Awon Iya Wa Osoronga

Cultivating an informed and active relationship with this complex of ideas and the practices associated with them is at the centre of the concept of  'aje'.The complex of ideas around this concept is quite subtle and its complexity is such that I want to be careful about how I address it here because I am still refining my understanding of it.At the core of this complexity is the notion of the relationship between the aje concept and the feminine matrix in Orisa cosmology as embodied in what Lawal describes inThe Gelede Spectacle as the unity of female Orisa in Ille,the Earth Mother and her manifestation in Odu,the feminine cosmic transformative and hermeneutic personality and her 256 manifestations, manifestations described by Fatunmbi as energy patterns through which everything in nature comes into manifestation and by Bini babalawo  Joseph Ohomina as spirits of unknown origin,only a small fraction of whose significance is understood;spirits,who, as embodiments of all possibilities of existence,from the concrete to the abstract ,from physical forms to situations,are the power behind the efforts of the babalawo to understand,guide and transform human fortunes.

The relationship between the aje and the spiritual origin of female procreative capacity is represented by their female associates being described as Awon Iya wa Osoronga,Our Mothers.I dont know what Osoronga means.This implies that the aje are understood as capable of both maternal and destructive activity while their power is described as central to the stablity of the body politic including the power of the king.The literature on this subject is growing but the picture still needs clarity and its seems the discussion of the subject is gaining ground faster in the Diaspora where it is being significantly discussed and adapted,to some degree,in terms of forms of practice.A text that sums up perspectives on this subject in Yorubaland and the Diaspora although it weakens its case by eschewing critical examination of the subject for thoroughgoing valorisation of the aje concept is  Teresa Washington,Our Mothers,Our Powers, Our Texts.A book that describes male and female manifestations of the aje concept in the form of male traditional healers is Hallen and Sodipo, Knowledge,Belief and Witchcraft.

Ase,Bird imagery,Ori and aje

Lawal sums up the relationship believed to exist between ase,birds,ori and aje:

"...birds are celestial messengers,since they dwell on both land and sky and fly great distances across the water"..."The divine power (ase) of Olodumare enters the human body through the head and flies out of it (at death) like a bird"..."When the founder of witchcraft (Odu) was leaving heaven for the earth, Olodumare gave her a special Ase in the form of a bird enclosed in a calabash." [the calabash of Odu,Igba Odu, 'the beginning and the end of all things' is a cosmic symbol that sums up the creative personalities that underlie the cosmos  in relation to the fecundative and nurturing womb that is Odu]..."To the Yoruba Ase is invisible and immaterial; when activated it flies like a mysterious bird. As the seat of the soul (the ase of the individual) the orl is also capable of flight, and this occurs during dreams, trances, or when a witch [aje] "changes into a bird inside her body and flies out of the mouth" to attack victims"( "On the Significance of the Head in Yoruba Sculpture". Attached).

 Forthcoming

1.   How to Become Aje

   A procedure from  Pierre Verger's Ewe:The Uses of Plants in Yoruba Society on how to be become an aje,Awon Iya Wa,using herbs and incantations.It would be interesting to experiment with it.

2. Understandings from the African Diaspora of the Feminine Complex in the Orisa tradition  

3. A Summative Exploration of the Feminine Complex in  the Orisa tradition as it Unifies the Central Classical Yoruba Institutions of Ifa,Ogboni and Gelede, a most rich pot of ideas.

Also blogged at Cognitive Diary.

Now,where are we in this debate?

As students of esuneutics,as described by Obododinma Oha,which all students of Ifa are,having reached this point on the road we have been travelling we need to take stock.

We have arrived at a crossroads.This implies certain issues have reached a consummation leaving us with the choices to make as to what direction of the various roads open to us that we should take.

In this,one is thinking as a student of Esu,the dweller at the crossroads,the mobile one,always in motion,always inspiring choices,interpretations,opportunities,consequences.

To understand the paths,the interpretive possiblities open to us at this junction,this intersection of roads and oportunities,we need to look back and look around,to understand how we got here.

In doing this,we operate in the spirit of our good frriend,Esu,whose face looks  backwards and another of which looks fowards.

on IFA

When oil is spilled in water,it becomes difficult to discern where water ends and oil begins.

This is the kind of muddying and confusion of debate that afis wants to achieve. In the course of this debate,afis and his fellow ethnic jingoists, along with the misguided Tony Agbali, have challenged me on a number of issues.They demanded I respond to those new issues they have raised.Now afis is insisting he wants to address only the original issue that began the debate.Clearly he is trying to dodge  something.He does not want to respond to the challenge I issued about his shallow knowledge of Esu, a central figure in Orisa cosmology.

 The discussion began with my argument on the need to expand or even modify ese ifa. I am more than capable of responding fully to all the challenges raised in the course of this discussion and will do so one by one.I will respond in sequence to all the questions raised,up till the last point on ese ifa. Meanwhile afis and his fellow uninformed people, resistant to learning,will not be allowed to escape from the responsibility to prove the points they have tried to make against me.

afis ridiculed my description of an invocation of Esu,claiming that it  shows my ignorance of Yoruba language and spirituality because no one invokes Esu since Esu is purely destructive.

I argue,to the contrary that Esu is essentially understood as a creative force that manifests in various ways,of which what might look like destructiveness is one of them.That,in fact,Esu is messenger between humans and orisa,as well as a central figure in Ifa divination.

Based on afis last response,I  establish the following

1.You,afis, have FAILED to respond to my central question on Esu-if Esu is understood as purely destructive as you claim,why does he play a central role in Ifa,as demonstrated,for example by his representation  in opon ifa,Ifa divination trays,where his face is carved  face upward ,facing the babalawo as he divines?

You responded:

"By the way, you are only partially correct about "opon Ifa"...you are now ascribing behavior and particularity of certain parts to all others.

I say unequivocally that what symbol or design adorning the "opon Ifa" depends on the parts of Yorubaland that the Ifa priest comes from. 

The old Yoruba Kingdoms habored several dialects that have their own versions of how to appease their deities, though there were similarities.  However, even with the similarities their ways of worship and the importance of the deities in their lives varied.

Esu may not be as important in Ede town, while Ile-Ife may find Esu as next to Orumila.  Yeye Osun may be the most revered in Osogbo, and Esu laalu may be relegated to the background. 

I've seen different symbols on "opon Ifa", in different towns and villages. In fact, the Olu-awo-s in the Awori sub-Yoruba-group don't have "opon Ifa" with Esu's face on them. Their symbols are quiet different"

Has anything you have written invalidated my position?

No.

You have in fact done two things:

You have supported and reinforced my position.

Any deviation from my position expressed by you is at best a refinement of my  position.

The problem here is that you might realise your error but in your ethnic bigotry,in your determination to assert the superiority of your understanding of native Yoruba identity,you are not willing to admit it.

With your loud "cyber lips" you earlier stated that  a person making an  invocation to Esu amounts to placing a ""CURSE" on himself, telling Esu laalu to pursue him until his life is snuffed out of him".
With the same loud and self contradictory cyber lips you turn round and tell us the opposite,forgetting that I am keeping watch of every word and will pounce on your dishonest effort to escape the trap you have created for yourself.

You now write:

"...Ile-Ife may find Esu as next to Orumila."
Wow.

Are you referring to Orunmila,the orisa of wisdom,Eleri Ipin,the Witness to Creation,the one whom the Ifa oracle is based on,whom people go to for guidance all over Yorubaland and the diaspora?

You are now telling us that this venerable and wise figure is  placed in very close association with   a figure you describe as wholly destructive?

Do you want to tell us that placing "Esu next to Orunmila" as you state does not mean close association in activity and importance?

Or do you mean their physical symbols being placed  next to each other on a shelf?  Or on a shrine?

Of course not.

All along you have been trying to describe  various levels of importance of Esu in parts of Yorubaland.

You are telling us therefore,that in Ille-Ife,the place where the Yoruba creation myth says the world began ,Esu and Orunmila might be seen as working hand in hand.

You thereby assert that both the figure you describe as wholly destructive  and the orisa of wisdom are seen as  working intimately  together in parts of  Yorubaland.

Most interesting.

afis Odidere,please tell us how what you have written above can be reconciled with your earlier comment that  a person invoking Esu is tantamount to placing a "CURSE" on himself, telling Esu laalu to pursue him until his life is snuffed out of him".

From your "fecund yet uncluttered mind" as described by Laiye Oduntan after you dug yourself deeper into the trap Esu led you into  on my behalf,please explain this contradiction.

You must not run away from this .You must prove that you are not  " fecund" in contradiction.That you are not cluttered in disorganized understanding of that Yoruba civilization you like to crow about.

Do you now agree you have reinforced my position that Esu is not understood wholly in destructive terms  but as demonstrating   different aspects to his character?

Even if we give credence to your argument about various levels of importance of Esu in Yorubaland,it does not invalidate my  argument that Esu is not seen only in destructive terms in the Orisa tradition.It reinforces  and refines my argument.

I wish I could remember an ese ifa that will sum up this situation into which you have allowed yourself to be trapped in.No problem.I can invent one.Here it is:

                                                                                                  Ose'Tura


                                                                                                    I          I
                                                                                                    
                                                                                                    II         II
                                                                                                 
                                                                                                    I          I
                                                                                                 
                                                                                                    I          I




The water in the sky and the water on the earth are the same,but different.

The  Babalawo (Ifa priest) of the Heart
consulted Ifa on behalf of Okere(the squirrel).

The Odu(divinatory pattern) that emerged was Ose'Tura
(which may be understood as the Odu of Esu,embodiment of the X factor,the unanticipated,among other qualities)

"Okere",said the babalawo
"You shall be going on a journey soon.
On this journey,
When you want to fetch a nut for food,be careful which nuts you choose.

Choose only nuts that you can carry home easily.
Dont take any nut too heavy for you.

If you see that any particular nut is too heavy, drop it,so you can get home.

Give to Ifa a sacrifice of a kola nut, representing the wisdom to know when to change your actions,sprinkled with palm oil to smoothen  the workings of your mind so you are not held down by stubborn pride".

Okere thanked the babalawo and went home.

When he told his wife about what the babalawo told him

His wife pooh poohed the babalawo's warning.

"Are you not General Okere,of the fecund and uncluttered mind?

Who has ever known you to bite off more than you chew?

Are you not Jaguna,whose name is spoken of in whispers among the rugged hill climbers in Abeokuta,the Place Below the Rock?"

So Okere did not sacrifice and he allowed the breeze of time to wash away from his mind the warnings of the babalawo.

One day,Okere went on a journey, as the babalawo had predicted.

On his way back,Okere decided  to carry some nuts home to his wife.

He found one,found,two,found three.

He carried them all.

He found the fourth one but he had problems carrying all four beceause the fourth one was too big.

He struggled to accomodate the fourth nut and kept struggling till night fell.

The next morning found him still struggling with the nut.

Night met him there in the same predicament.

He could not bring himself to abandon the fourth nut beceause he found it so attractive.

His pride refused to let him release the nut.

Okere might still be back there struggling with the fourth nut.

Secondly,even though I have no evidence to the contrary,I would like you to prove this assertion by you:

"In fact, the Olu-awo-s in the Awori sub-Yoruba-group don't have "opon Ifa" with Esu's face on them."

This could exist,but I doubt if they are the norm.I would like to see pictures,anyway.

I challenge you to provide evidence to that effect,in the form of photographs.Meanwhile,I post here images of opon ifa,in different designs,from two different parts of Yorubaland,all with the face of Esu on them.

                                                             Opon Ifa from Ijebu

                                                              Opon Ifa from Oyo

Images from The Yoruba Artist ed.Roland Abiodun et al and Yoruba:Nine Centuries of African Art and Thought ed.Henry John Drewal et al 

Thirdly,this point you make is elementary:

"I say unequivocally that what symbol or design adorning the "opon Ifa" depends on the parts of Yorubaland that the Ifa priest comes from".  

You again,for once when you get it right,state a basic fact as if you are saying something wonderful.

There is a broad range of designs for opon ifa.Within these possiblities,there are variable and invariable elements of design.The invariable elements,which often do not change,are the empty centre,where the divinatory instruments are cast and the face of Esu.

The other elements are variable.

I also see this statement as false in relation to my argument that Esu always features as a creative agent working with Orunmila,the orisa of wisdom:

"you are now ascribing behavior and particularity of certain parts to all others".

Ifa,within and beyond Nigeria,has reached a level of standardisation that implies that certain features achieve uniformity everywhere.The relationship between Esu and Orunmila is one of those.

Can you prove that the fact that Esu is messenger between humans and Orisa is not universal throughout Yorubaland and the diapora as of the present moment?If you want to invoke an rgument from the historical devlopemnt of Ifa,sugesting that this might not alwys have been so I am interested in examining your evidence but even then it does not invalidate my point beceause I have always been referring to the present moment in history.I dont expect you to be able to even prove that it was not always  so ,any way.I dont expect you can becaeuse of the difficulty of rcaing the historical  development and because of your limired understanding of the value of scholarship,

mot to talk of its skills.

as evidence in your scorn of scholarship 

 

I expect that as you scheme on how to dig yourself out of this self created trap,you might begin to appreciate that you need to look sharp when I speak of brother Esu.

You are entering into a realm that is new to you.

Rather than spend time beating my chest and engaging in rhetoric like you,even though you are really saying nothing new,I leave you with this expression,particularly relevant since you and your ethnic bigots like to throw their Yoruba knowledge about.

Bi owe,bi owe, lan lulu agidigbo.

Like a proverb,like a proverb,is the war drum beaten.

I am ready to debate till the end of the world ALL the issues raised .I will not ALLOW   ANY of the issues raised to escape analysis.If for any reason you choose not to explain your contradiction on EsuI will declare to everyone that you are trying to escape declaring your mistake or/and   ignorance.Then I will go on to examine critically the other points  in this debate.By which time,the world will see you and your supporters for what you are.

Thanks

Toyin